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  #1421  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:14 AM
8088 8088 is offline
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Originally Posted by pmoses View Post
I didn't write why Byzantine Empire fell. I didn't wrote why Geuzen told "Better belong to Ottomans than to Pope". I wrote about year 1683. You could ask anyone from Pannonia to Athens how much was Ottoman empire loved. You could ask anyone from Yerevan to Jerusalem how they loved being killed for glory of sultan and his prophet.
How many Armenians were killed by Turks, Kurds and Germans? Two millions? Could I think that it wasn't deed of love?
In fact you could see successes of Ottomans in historical artifacts, how they nurtured fertile land of Balkan and Levant. How they cared of people from Crimea and Caucasus on north to Egypt and Arabia on south. How much improvement they brought to world wisdom and culture.

As first step in which European could unit, or which could do any country alone is:
1) do not let Saudi Barbaria support their wahhabi preachers in any mosque.
2) let people work. Less bureaucracy and no taxes for poor workers. Tell young uneducated people: If you want to excel - study hard, work hard and then you will earn your money.
I didn't said that Ottomans were good. I said that they weren't any worse than the alternative at the time. Remember that there were a lot of christians doing barbaric acts and even burning in the stake their fellow countrymen. There was a time when christians were equal or more barbaric than those you criticise. The first crusade yielded more civilian christian casualties than muslim ones.

There is a part of islam that is in crisis right now and it is stuck in backward ways but that doesn't mean that european christians have the moral high ground.
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  #1422  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:27 AM
laurent laurent is offline
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Originally Posted by 8088 View Post
There is a part of islam that is in crisis right now and it is stuck in backward ways but that doesn't mean that european christians have the moral high ground.
To me it feels like some part of Islam is behaving like Christians a few centuries ago. Except that back then Christians killed way more people than what ISIS and other brain dead extremists kill now.

And many Christians keep on fighting against same genre marriages, against abortions and so on. They still live in another and dark age.
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  #1423  
Old 04-21-2017, 11:46 AM
Moral Hazard Moral Hazard is offline
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Originally Posted by laurent View Post
Choosing racism, nationalism and isolationism is the worst way to fight against such groups.
Open borders doesn't appear to be a very good method either. And if showing great appreciation for the "prophet Mohammed" did any good terrorism wouldn't be even worse in Islamic countries.
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  #1424  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:03 PM
laurent laurent is offline
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Originally Posted by Moral Hazard View Post
Open borders doesn't appear to be a very good method either.
Many terrorists are not strangers so closing your borders won't help.

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And if showing great appreciation for the "prophet Mohammed" did any good terrorism wouldn't be even worse in Islamic countries.
Killing in the name of the prophet doesn't mean they follow the religion. They just use religion as an excuse.
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  #1425  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:15 PM
pmoses pmoses is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laurent View Post
Many terrorists are not strangers so closing your borders won't help.
I think this is good idea. Let anyone come in and work.

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Killing in the name of the prophet doesn't mean they follow the religion. They just use religion as an excuse.
Yes. Totally agree. Those theocratic regimes in Saudi Arabia, Iran, even Taliban, Hamas, Fatah, now Turkey use religion just as an excuse for violence. The same is valid for their proxies in Europe.
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  #1426  
Old 04-21-2017, 12:26 PM
pmoses pmoses is online now
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Originally Posted by laurent View Post
To me it feels like some part of Islam is behaving like Christians a few centuries ago. Except that back then Christians killed way more people than what ISIS and other brain dead extremists kill now.

And many Christians keep on fighting against same genre marriages, against abortions and so on. They still live in another and dark age.
Last religion slaughters in Europe were (if I count it correctly):
Killing millions of Jews, Poles, Russians and others in the name of new German religion.
Killing millions of Ukraininans in the name of new Communist religion
Killing millions of Armenians in the name of old muslim and German religion.
19th century, was almost without slaughters, if we don't count "regular" battles for new Germany.
Then we have great slaughters for new French religion. One of them was at Vendée. You know Liberté, Egalité, Vendée.
If you will count those Germans, Communists, Muslims, French Revolutionists (Socialists?) as Christians, then yes, last centuries were centuries of Christian violence in the name of religion.
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  #1427  
Old 04-21-2017, 05:43 PM
Moral Hazard Moral Hazard is offline
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Originally Posted by laurent View Post
Many terrorists are not strangers so closing your borders won't help.
The problem with this logic, even if it was true that "many terrorists aren't strangers" is that "many" != "all". It is true that many of the terrorists in France, unlike the rest of Europe, immigrated there decades ago, but even so several of the 2015 Paris shooters, for instance, had traveled to France within the last year.

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Originally Posted by laurent View Post
Killing in the name of the prophet doesn't mean they follow the religion. They just use religion as an excuse.
Do you consider yourself a better expert on Islam than those who profess to believe it, and are willing to both kill and die in its name? Personally I take people at their word on what their religion is, even when they aren't willing to engage in a suicide bombing to back it up.
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  #1428  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:34 PM
system7 system7 is offline
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I don't profess to know the answer to terrorism in Europe by angry young men.

The Battle of Vienna in 1683 was certainly some sort of watershed in Europe. It's when Europe substantially defeated a huge invading force.

The Ottoman leader, Kara Mustafa, certainly ticked all the boxes of all the insane despots we have seen before:
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Outwardly handsome, dignified, and a devout Muslim, inwardly the Grand Vizier was an arrogant power monger with an unveiled hatred of Christians. His one redeeming quality was his personal bravery, but even this was tarnished by acts of extreme brutality; he once flayed captured Poles alive and sent their stuffed hides to the Sultan as trophies. Mustafa cared only for his own career and freely used deceit and blackmail to make up for his lack of any real talent. Determined to follow in the footsteps of the great Islamic conquerors of old, Mustafa had set out to overcome the barrier that once before, in 1529, blocked the westward advance of the Ottoman Turks: Vienna, capital of the Holy Roman Empire and of the Imperial dynasty, the House of Hapsburg.
TBH, I find Laurent slightly irritating here, with his negative views on the Christian culture in which he comfortably resides. The issue of abortion to a Christian might come down to murder of the unborn. It's a tough one. But I would draw a line at bombing or murdering at Abortion clinics. It's simply unChristian.

See, we have seen it all before. It is important to have a spiritual or moral compass IMO. But we should also look out to Science for better ways of doing things. Islam used to be tremendously outward looking. It invented Al-Gebra. It was actually very tolerant of minorities. It encourages a sober and serious approach to life.

Bit weak on feminism and racialism and religious tolerance currently. Time Islam grew up IMO. And that can only come from the sensible majority of Muslims. So stand up for the right, you people. It's what we Europeans did about 500 years ago.
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  #1429  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:09 AM
laurent laurent is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moral Hazard View Post
The problem with this logic, even if it was true that "many terrorists aren't strangers" is that "many" != "all". It is true that many of the terrorists in France, unlike the rest of Europe, immigrated there decades ago, but even so several of the 2015 Paris shooters, for instance, had traveled to France within the last year.
You are right we should all build walls around our borders, that will solve terrorism

Quote:
Do you consider yourself a better expert on Islam than those who profess to believe it, and are willing to both kill and die in its name? Personally I take people at their word on what their religion is, even when they aren't willing to engage in a suicide bombing to back it up.
I have enough Muslim friends to know that Islam doesn't mean terrorism. Did you ever discuss with a Muslim?
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  #1430  
Old 04-22-2017, 03:19 AM
GeorgiD GeorgiD is offline
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Terrorism / existance of military / war moods can be solved ONLY with a radical change for the better in humankind.
When magically all begin to live in peace and happiness.
Still, long way until that time though
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