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Thread: HP said to to dump Microsoft over Surface

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by charlie View Post
    So basically, you are saying that WART will be interesting to those who don't own a tablet or phone with iOS or Android now, AND no not have ANY legacy PC software that they like. I agree with that, all 17 of those users will lover their WART devices.
    So everyone on this planet except 17 people own an tablet/phone with ios/andriod ?

    I know a few people who have had sub par experiances with andriod esp on tablets and are not keen to going back. We bought a first gen transformer for my sister partialy so she could surf the web and check mail on the couch and partialy so my nephew and niece can watch movies when we are away from the house. My sister hasn't liked the experiance she has had and wants to move ovre to IOS , when i told her about windows 8 she decided to hold off to see.

    I'm sure my sister isn't the only one with a sub par experiance and like I said i know a few . I even know some who tried both ios and andriod and are now on windows phone.



    MS can either undercut their OEMs by enough to make Surface attractive, hence pissing off the entire OEM community, or be one of the crowd. I can already see the blowback now, any ODM that makes MS products gets 0 orders from everyone else. Good luck finding anyone to make your stuff now Stevie.

    If they are one of the crowd, they are one of the crowd. Why by an MS product when you can buy an Apple product that is better designed, executed, and supported, plus runs all the MS stuff?

    This is a no win for MS.
    I don't see where this is coming from.

    When you look at isupply and other sites that break down and try to figure out costs they allways state the display is the most expensive part in a tablet. I believe the display in the ipad 2 cost upwards of $100 more than any other part in there by a long shot. Acer is shipping a 1920x1200 screen in an andriod for $450 it has 1 gig of ram a tegra 3 t30 and 32 gigs of space. So I don't see ms undercutting these companys


    That said, wait until they unveil their..... More later.
    i'd love to see more products from MS , I'd love to see a signiture laptop and desktop also . I hate having friends call me up because amazon isn't working only to find out the company who they bought a laptop from put on a virus program/ firewall that blocks them from going to the site.


    HP makes crap products. I used to buy tons of them, but HP hasn't made anything worth a damn in a long time. Lenovo for laptops, Dell for everything, assuming you pick the right lines for both.
    I manage 1,200 computers. 100 of them are imacs which i will never let the school buy again (they might look nice but they do not handle school kids well) the rest are split between hp and dell. I would recommend dell desktops but never a dell notebook and reverse that for hp .

    However this is the problem , not that ms has its own device. Its that these companys can't compete because they are used to playing at the bottom of the barrel . The average selling price of a pc is far under $1k now and as they continue racing to the bottom the windows brand will get dragged down with them.

    I hear from friends and family all the time how great their new mac book pro is compared to their old dell or hp and what i tell them is if they spend $1,500 on a brand new laptop they would say the same exact thing. Its not apple that makes the product good its the price point. But what i don't say is first you have to pay someone to take off all the crap these companys instal. Its the first thing I do when i go to anyone's house to fix a pc/laptop. I have a pouch with every type of windows from xp onward so I can back up their files and then do a fresh install .


    It's not attractive, it is a desperation move.MS doesn't cut prices unless it is getting blown out of the water. They are now cutting prices. Before you say they have done this before, not for the pro version they haven't, that is the holy grail at MS, thou shalt not touch enterprise pricing unless thou art increasing it. If it was for Win8 CE (Craptacular Edition), I would agree. It isn't.
    In 2009 windows home 7 permium was $49 with preorder , windows 7 pro was $100 . Both half the cost of what they would be normaly.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10274976-56.html

    Your right this deal is better, but its also important for them and the faster they get people on windows 8 the faster they get apps and the faster they get more people on. Its a smart move by MS


    Retail is dying out for anything other than first time buyers, and there aren't many of them left. Best Buy is on it's last legs right now, and they are the only national electronics store left in the US.
    There are still alot of people who like to see before they buy. While bestbuy is dying it seems like specialty shops are increasing. Microcenter on the east coast and frys on the west coast and of course the apple store. Even MS has opened 3 stores in new jersey and are planing on 2 more .



    MS didn't have a plan. They didn't think this through. It was a skunkworks project intended to convince people that MS had fresh ideas. It didn't. They don't. You can tell by how surprised they were by the negative reaction, they simply didn't think this one through.
    What negative reaction ? All the blogs and fan sites loved the surface , all the forums i go to love the surface . It even woke up all the fan boys from andriod and apple to for the first time in a long time bash a MS product.

    If HP is the one upset , then good let them be upset. Mabye it will wake them up and they will actual make good products.



    Given how much MS spends to get ATT to shovel that phone on people, it is no surprise that it sells a bit. A few problems though. 1) given the push behind it, it should be #1, not near the bottom of the top 10 lists. 2) It is the cheapest current smartphone, that usually boosts numbers. 3) Much of 2 is slush-fund and kickback related 4) As soon as the subsidies went away in other markets, so did sales. 4) It is being outsold several times over by phones far more expensive (Galaxy #/iSomething).
    Allways an excsue . Come the fall you'll start running out of them.

    MS is in a pay to play situation right now. They likely are losing money on each phone sold, and Nokia definitely is. How long can they keep it up? Quite a while. How long until their investors start grumbling? Not long now.
    Doesn't seem to matter , come fall they will have a single eccosystem and they will start making moeny on the products. The only company that doesn't seem on board is sprint and that will change.

    Lastly, they are about to 'Zune' all their early adopters. Windows Phone 8, the new Packard-Bell of computing.

    -Charlie
    Don't you mean they are about to "Andriod" their early adopters. My original zune received all the new features of the later gen ones. Its my andriod phones that don't seem to get more than 1-2 upgrades . My epic 4g which was a sprint flagship in 2010/11 only recieved 2 updates , the last one was 2.3.3 and its where it will stay forever. Phones bought late 2011 / early 2012 wont recieve ICS let alone JellyBean with butter. Google forcing a constant upgrade is not a problem it seems , only when MS does it

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    When you look at isupply and other sites that break down and try to figure out costs they allways state the display is the most expensive part in a tablet. I believe the display in the ipad 2 cost upwards of $100 more than any other part in there by a long shot. Acer is shipping a 1920x1200 screen in an andriod for $450 it has 1 gig of ram a tegra 3 t30 and 32 gigs of space. So I don't see ms undercutting these companys
    Microsoft can undercut these companies because they don't need to pay for the Windows license. No matter how cheap or sophisticated you make the tablet, they can always sell the same hardware for $85 less.
    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by charlie View Post
    MS didn't have a plan. They didn't think this through. It was a skunkworks project intended to convince people that MS had fresh ideas. It didn't. They don't. You can tell by how surprised they were by the negative reaction, they simply didn't think this one through.
    What negative reaction ? All the blogs and fan sites loved the surface , all the forums i go to love the surface . It even woke up all the fan boys from andriod and apple to for the first time in a long time bash a MS product.

    If HP is the one upset , then good let them be upset. Mabye it will wake them up and they will actual make good products.
    It seems that you need to read the article and the posts in this thread more closely. The negative reaction came precisely from the OEMs, not blogs or fan sites.
    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    Doesn't seem to matter , come fall they will have a single eccosystem and they will start making moeny on the products. The only company that doesn't seem on board is sprint and that will change.
    Uh, what? When Windows 8 RT launches, there will be three relevant ecosystems:
    1. Win32/WPF/etc.: Runs on the x86 tablet
    2. Silverlight/XNA: runs on WP7 and WP8
    3. WinRT .NET: runs on the ARM and x86 tablets and WP8

    The hope of Lumia 900 owners is that new applications will still be published in Silverlight/XNA, but new customers understand that this seems increasingly unlikely (Eldar Murtazin: Lumia Sales Plummet Following A Microsoft Presentation).

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    When you look at isupply and other sites that break down and try to figure out costs they allways state the display is the most expensive part in a tablet. I believe the display in the ipad 2 cost upwards of $100 more than any other part in there by a long shot. Acer is shipping a 1920x1200 screen in an andriod for $450 it has 1 gig of ram a tegra 3 t30 and 32 gigs of space. So I don't see ms undercutting these companys
    Instead of quoting figures from memory why don't you look at the original source here? I say that because I always remember wrong as it seems you did

    For the new iPad, the display is said to cost $87 and the touchscreen $40, while for iPad 2 it's $57+$40. So yes it's the most expensive part of these tablets but for iPad 2 16 GB the screen alone is about 24% of the BOM while for new iPad 16 GB it's 28%.
    Speaking for myself.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by fullermd View Post
    Hm, I don't have any iOS or Android device. And I don't have any legacy [Windows] PC software. But...

    Better make it 16.
    Expect a call from Steve soon. He is likely authorized by the board to buy you dinner, but given the company, for the sake of your hearing, I would recommend not going.

    -Charlie

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    I know a few people who have had sub par experiances with andriod esp on tablets and are not keen to going back. We bought a first gen transformer for my sister partialy so she could surf the web and check mail on the couch and partialy so my nephew and niece can watch movies when we are away from the house. My sister hasn't liked the experiance she has had and wants to move ovre to IOS , when i told her about windows 8 she decided to hold off to see.

    I'm sure my sister isn't the only one with a sub par experiance and like I said i know a few . I even know some who tried both ios and andriod and are now on windows phone.
    No, but a sub-par experience with both does not necessarily mean moving to a third OS, especially if you have a tablet now. Once you have a tablet with a 1920 screen, the impetus to upgrade is somewhere between low and non-existent.

    As for Windows phone, yes there are some, but if you look at the sales numbers, there aren't all that many, especially given the push ATT has on at the moment. MS's current marketshare for new sales is <2%, and everyone who bought a 7.x device is about to get Zuned. Even with cash shoveled at the market, they are barely breaking even. Not a sane plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    I don't see where this is coming from.

    When you look at isupply and other sites that break down and try to figure out costs they allways state the display is the most expensive part in a tablet. I believe the display in the ipad 2 cost upwards of $100 more than any other part in there by a long shot. Acer is shipping a 1920x1200 screen in an andriod for $450 it has 1 gig of ram a tegra 3 t30 and 32 gigs of space. So I don't see ms undercutting these companys
    For Windows/WART, not Win vs Android/iOS. Most large companys have essentially the same volume economics, Apple being the one standout. MS has one difference thought vs other Windows box slingers, they don't have to pay for the OS, _AND_ they get the majority of the app store/content store fees. That puts MS at a $35++ BoM cost advantage, and end user price is usually 2x BoM. MS can undercut OEMs by at least 10% on a $500-ish product, twice that if you count WART's cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    i'd love to see more products from MS , I'd love to see a signiture laptop and desktop also . I hate having friends call me up because amazon isn't working only to find out the company who they bought a laptop from put on a virus program/ firewall that blocks them from going to the site.
    I get this shit all the time, but I don't think MS making a box will fix that, sooner or later, they will succumb to the same crap too. Heck, they already do it with the 'starter' and 60-day trials of their on stuff. Wait till the margin pressure builds, they will do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    I manage 1,200 computers. 100 of them are imacs which i will never let the school buy again (they might look nice but they do not handle school kids well) the rest are split between hp and dell. I would recommend dell desktops but never a dell notebook and reverse that for hp .
    I think it more depends on the specific lines you buy within an OEM. That said, I have had crap luck with HP everything of late, Dell has been quite solid.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    However this is the problem , not that ms has its own device. Its that these companys can't compete because they are used to playing at the bottom of the barrel . The average selling price of a pc is far under $1k now and as they continue racing to the bottom the windows brand will get dragged down with them.

    I hear from friends and family all the time how great their new mac book pro is compared to their old dell or hp and what i tell them is if they spend $1,500 on a brand new laptop they would say the same exact thing. Its not apple that makes the product good its the price point. But what i don't say is first you have to pay someone to take off all the crap these companys instal. Its the first thing I do when i go to anyone's house to fix a pc/laptop. I have a pouch with every type of windows from xp onward so I can back up their files and then do a fresh install .
    I totally agree with you here, the race to the bottom has been pissing me off for years. The problem isn't solved by MS though, it is MS's doing. Why? They have not allowed OEMs to innovate, they see it as diluting their precious windows experience. I don't know if you have ever seen the OEM restrictions on what you can do on/to the desktop, but they are pretty scary. I don't have a copy any more or I would post it, but they basically say you can't screw around with anything other than putting a few icons on the desktop.

    MS has essentially forbidden OEMs from innovating, and because of this, they have to compete on price. MS still has those handcuffs on the OEMs, but they don't have to follow those rules internally because they define the windows experience. See the problem?

    MS also has a time to market advantage over everyone for highly embedded OSes, want to bet that Surface is going to be very nicely polished as optimized, the others not so much? The WART devices at Computex were in a sad state of optimization, the Asus keynote had no less than three crashes/lockups including one BSOD. This OS is NOT ready, but it will be for Surface, or it will be delayed. If Asus isn't ready, tough shit. OEMs don't like these double standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    In 2009 windows home 7 permium was $49 with preorder , windows 7 pro was $100 . Both half the cost of what they would be normaly.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10274976-56.html

    Your right this deal is better, but its also important for them and the faster they get people on windows 8 the faster they get apps and the faster they get more people on. Its a smart move by MS
    I specifically called out the Pro version, that is a 60% price cut over the best deal they have offered before. Like I said, Enterprise pricing is sacred at MS, and this is a desperate move to push sales. That said, have you tried Win8 on a desktop without a touch screen? Upgrades are going to be.... problematic.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    There are still alot of people who like to see before they buy. While bestbuy is dying it seems like specialty shops are increasing. Microcenter on the east coast and frys on the west coast and of course the apple store. Even MS has opened 3 stores in new jersey and are planing on 2 more .
    I totally agree with you here, and the world would be a better place if you could try before you buy. That said, Microcenter has about 20 locations around the US, Frys isn't much larger. BB is an order of magnitude bigger. Different class of stores. There is only one national electronics retailer now, BB.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    What negative reaction ? All the blogs and fan sites loved the surface , all the forums i go to love the surface . It even woke up all the fan boys from andriod and apple to for the first time in a long time bash a MS product.
    The one from the OEMs. That said, the fanbois are doing what they were programmed to do. MS had a media event, but no one got to use the damn thing. Coincidence? The only ones who get near it are considered 'safe' and 'tame', and even then, they maybe got what, 10 minutes? If the Computex devices were any indication of readyness, there is a good reason for this.

    Fanboi echo chambers are just that, and you are perpetuating the PR moves by saying what you did. Wait until you get hands on before you say it is great.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    If HP is the one upset , then good let them be upset. Mabye it will wake them up and they will actual make good products.
    They can't compete. They are at a minimum of $90 disadvantage to MS on a $500 product. Not a chance to win unless they make absolute crap by squeezing every penny out of their device. Is that what you want, or do you think an equally specced, including build quality, HP tablet at $599 will sell vs a $499 MS Surface?

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    Allways an excsue . Come the fall you'll start running out of them.
    So why don't you counter any of them if they are just excuses?

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    Doesn't seem to matter , come fall they will have a single eccosystem and they will start making moeny on the products. The only company that doesn't seem on board is sprint and that will change.
    T-Mobile just said no in Germany, and that is the mothership. Not sure about Verizon, but I would guess they have a token to support the business customers that have Wince.

    That said, you can search and replace, actually not even do that, for the WP7 launch. Single ecosystem, fresh start, massive ad campaign, better OS than everyone, MS support, go team. End result? Marketshare leapt up from a mere 12% to... err... under 2%. This time however, they have a single ecosystem, a fresh start, massive ad campaign, better OS than everyone, MS support, go team. How can it not win?

    Please do ignore the Zuning of all Win7 buyers, the imminent death of Nokia, and the partner list that they had at WP7 launch that they don't have now. Those things are directly counter to the PR spin, so don't consider them at all please.

    Quote Originally Posted by gljvd View Post
    Don't you mean they are about to "Andriod" their early adopters. My original zune received all the new features of the later gen ones. Its my andriod phones that don't seem to get more than 1-2 upgrades . My epic 4g which was a sprint flagship in 2010/11 only recieved 2 updates , the last one was 2.3.3 and its where it will stay forever. Phones bought late 2011 / early 2012 wont recieve ICS let alone JellyBean with butter. Google forcing a constant upgrade is not a problem it seems , only when MS does it
    Can you buy music for you Zune now? What happened to the stuff you bought earlier? Transferrable, or is it locked down to the one PC you synced it to when the store went belly up. How many Apps have come out in the last 6 months?

    That all said, how much does an Android update do? I am on 2.3 or 2.4, I forget, and to be honest, I don't really care. A lot of people get worked up in to a lather over the latest update, but can't articulate any benefits it would bring to them. Can you explain what going from 2.3 to 2.4 would bring you that you would use?

    -Charlie

  6. #26
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    Starter and trials are meant as a counter to Open (Libre) Office and Google Docs. Use them if you wish, ignore/uninstall if you dont. Its not like you need to reinstall the whole OS to get rid of them, like some other malware OEMs put on your computer. It would still be better if your computer came clean of this.

    As for race to the bottom and MS's fault - huh??? MS just mandates that the OS looks like they want to. No stupidity with more or less functional skins, thank god. Race to the bottom is the fault of consumers demanding cheaper toys at the expense of build quality. They will throw it away in 2 years, why bother with premium materials?
    HP can still compete with MS and their Surface. Just make something that isnt a yet another copy. With yet another copy, what will happen? Yeah, you guessed it, another race to the bottom.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie View Post
    They have not allowed OEMs to innovate, they see it as diluting their precious windows experience. I don't know if you have ever seen the OEM restrictions on what you can do on/to the desktop, but they are pretty scary. I don't have a copy any more or I would post it, but they basically say you can't screw around with anything other than putting a few icons on the desktop.
    This is good thing, OS should be identical on any hardware. OEMs put enough bloatware in their PCs. At least you can always install clean copy of windows, unlike android, where you stuck with locked bootloader. OEM customization is like the first most annoying thing about android. Let them innovate with hardware.
    Excuse my poor english.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasn View Post
    This is good thing, OS should be identical on any hardware. OEMs put enough bloatware in their PCs. At least you can always install clean copy of windows, unlike android, where you stuck with locked bootloader. OEM customization is like the first most annoying thing about android. Let them innovate with hardware.
    Good or bad, that is the buyers call. That said, what it undeniably does is stifle innovation, you can ONLY have what MS offers, and only do what they want. 'Innovation' is on a 2-9 year cycle, and often ends up in things like Vista and ME. In the mean time, there is no other choice, and the industry stagnates.

    If you look at phones where things aren't locked, there is a ton of crap, reams of useless and annoying code, and things that make you scream. There is also a ton of good things, and the industry moves at light speed. Things DO change, and the end result is progress.

    In PC, you have stagnation and death. That is what MS gives you.

    -Charlie

  9. #29
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    From a support angle, stagnation sounds all right to me.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasn View Post
    This is good thing, OS should be identical on any hardware. OEMs put enough bloatware in their PCs. At least you can always install clean copy of windows, unlike android, where you stuck with locked bootloader. OEM customization is like the first most annoying thing about android. Let them innovate with hardware.
    I agree 100%, you are forced to root your phone to be able to use it properly, I am sick and tired of using crap, badly thought out custom Android UIs.

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