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Thread: 64bit gaming with XboxOne/PS4?

  1. #1

    64bit gaming with XboxOne/PS4?

    Today there is almost no 64bit games. When PS4 was announced it was supposed to have 4 gigs of ram. Then they raised it to 8 because XboxOne have it.

    Does this mean:
    That the OS will be 64bit?
    That the games will be 64bit?

    Because I love reading how "PC-clickers" recommend gamers to get at least 16 gig memory if they play "high resolution games". Somehow 32bit binaries can magically adress more then 4 gig when the games are "high res".

    And what about the 3.5 gig "bios" limit? Is that solved in PS4/XboxOne? No BIOS? Because if its not solved and its 32bit games, then games have 3.5 gig of 8 gig.

    Just look at the outcry when Sony said that they will use 2-3 gig of the memory for its OS and give the rest to the developers. Gamers where up in arms! Still... no one asked Sony if they have recompiled the OS to 64bit. PC clickers just believes that 32bit binaries can access petabyte of memory.

    Last: is 64bit gaming worth it on consoles? The games just get 5-5.5 gig anyway since the OS takes rest. The performance penalty on X86 in 64bit is about 3%. Not faster, like 64bit should be. (just look up TomHardwares tests 32bit vs 64bit. All benchmarks are about 3% slower in 64bit). Slower games, to gain 1 gig of memory that can be streamed from the hard drive.
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7603/m...ew-late-2013/5 Intel: 50%+ performance since 2006. ARM: 4000%+

  2. #2
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    If they're benching slower, then they're doing something wrong. Context switching takes longer due to more registers, but on the other hand... MORE REGISTERS SHOULD BE FASTER. It sounds like the compilers they're using can't effectively make user of extra registers, which is pretty pathetic because large register counts are the norm in most other architectures.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_and_grumpy View Post
    Today there is almost no 64bit games. When PS4 was announced it was supposed to have 4 gigs of ram. Then they raised it to 8 because XboxOne have it.

    Does this mean:
    That the OS will be 64bit?
    That the games will be 64bit?
    Sony raised it because the highest density of the GDDR5 that they could use doubled afaik.


    Just look at the outcry when Sony said that they will use 2-3 gig of the memory for its OS and give the rest to the developers. Gamers where up in arms! Still... no one asked Sony if they have recompiled the OS to 64bit. PC clickers just believes that 32bit binaries can access petabyte of memory.
    Yup, also, on that note, didn't Sony do something similar with the PS3 (take extra RAM to start, and give back to developers later)

    Last: is 64bit gaming worth it on consoles? The games just get 5-5.5 gig anyway since the OS takes rest. The performance penalty on X86 in 64bit is about 3%. Not faster, like 64bit should be. (just look up TomHardwares tests 32bit vs 64bit. All benchmarks are about 3% slower in 64bit). Slower games, to gain 1 gig of memory that can be streamed from the hard drive.
    I am going to guess any slowdowns doing to 64-bit probably have to do with OS legacy and other crap.


    Not 100% sure, that is just my guess.

    -Q
    -Q

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by http://hsafoundation.com/f-a-q/
    HSA supports two machine models: large mode (64-bit address space) and small mode (32-bit address space).
    Further in the HSA developer documentation IOMMU is a key to implementing the UMA model and the IOMMU can translate between hardware running in 32 bit mode to a 64 bit UMA scheme.

    Pointing out the obvious, if you already have 8 gigs of memory a UMA scheme must be greater than 32 bit.

    Contrary to popular opinion I think the plan was always to have 8 gig of memory. Energy Star's Auto Power Down and self refresh memory sorta demands a large memory and ALL Next generation game consoles which have to comply with the 2013 Energy Star "Voluntary" rules have that same 8 gigs (WiiU, XB1 and PS4) which I don't see as an accident.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
    Contrary to popular opinion I think the plan was always to have 8 gig of memory. Energy Star's Auto Power Down and self refresh memory sorta demands a large memory and ALL Next generation game consoles which have to comply with the 2013 Energy Star "Voluntary" rules have that same 8 gigs (WiiU, XB1 and PS4) which I don't see as an accident.
    no. The plan was not. Sony PS4 was planned 4GB GDDR5. So was Microsoft's Xbox One initially at 4GB DDR3. this is factually correct overall (The exact details/wording might be off) not "popular opinion"

    Sony bumped it because GDDR5 speed they were using doubled in density, enabling 8GB. no doubt, they wanted 8GB all along, because developers wanted it.

    Microsoft proceeded to do it because they needed 8GB to match Sony.

    -Q

    note: Claiming that the Wii U has 8GB of RAM does not enhance your position in any way. Especially considering the Wii U has 2GB of RAM...

    note: Can you at least try to pretend you understand what you are saying before you say it? Thanks.
    -Q

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by testbug00 View Post
    no. The plan was not.

    Sony bumped it because GDDR5 speed they were using doubled in density. Had Sony always WANTED to do 8GB GDDR5? Probably, but they could not until just before launch.
    Had they been waiting for the density to double to launch the PS4, they could have ended up waiting until 2014. I doubt the doubling comes at a regular cadence.

    Microsoft proceeded to do it because they needed 8GB to match Sony.

    -Q
    AMD has said that the PS4 using GDDR5 has caused the cost of GDDR5 to drop and higher densities to become practical. In researching Memory for next generation I found that Micron stated in a Stockholder meeting in 2012 that they were developing "semi-custom memory" for the game consoles. There was no market for the high density 8 Gb GDDR5 except for the PS4 because of cost. Micron was producing it only for the PS4 and maybe future AMD GPUs. I agree that 4Gb was the fallback if 8 Gb was delayed.

    Re: WiiU memory, sorry I quickly double checked and it was 1.5 GB with 8 GB Flash. WiiU also does not support APD so I guess their timing in getting it to market before the 2013 Energy Star rules were implemented was by design. This I think confirms the WiiU is not a next generation console.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
    AMD has said that the PS4 using GDDR5 has caused the cost of GDDR5 to drop and higher densities to become practical. In researching Memory for next generation I found that Micron stated in a Stockholder meeting in 2012 that they were developing "semi-custom memory" for the game consoles. There was no market for the high density 8 Gb GDDR5 except for the PS4 because of cost. Micron was producing it only for the PS4 and maybe future AMD GPUs. I agree that 4Gb was the fallback if 8 Gb was delayed.

    Re: WiiU memory, sorry I quickly double checked and it was 8 Gb Flash.
    The 2GB per 64-bit bus was only finalized a little before the PS4 announcement.

    They did not know when the breakthrough would happen, Sony could only hope it would happen before they announced/built their console.

    And also, you think this is purely for consoles? Workstation cards need all the RAM they can get. Nvidia certainly used the same density Sony used in the PS4 in there Quadro 6000.

    Microsoft was using, and planning, on shipping, with 4GB of RAM until Sony's announcement. this is factual.

    -Q

    Also, the Wii U was ready before it was launched. They did the same thing they did with the Gameboy Advanced, Gameboy SP, etc. They waited until hardware sales of the Wii died down.
    -Q

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by testbug00 View Post
    The 2GB per 64-bit bus was only finalized a little before the PS4 announcement.

    They did not know when the breakthrough would happen, Sony could only hope it would happen before they announced/built their console.

    And also, you think this is purely for consoles? Workstation cards need all the RAM they can get. Nvidia certainly used the same density Sony used in the PS4 in there Quadro 6000.

    Microsoft was using, and planning, on shipping, with 4GB of RAM until Sony's announcement. this is factual.
    The Quadro 6000 has 6GB with a 384 bit buss and 144 GB/sec speed. It is not using the PS4 memory or the same density GDDR5 memory. The 384 bit buss accounts for the odd memory size (not 4 or 8) and with a 384 bit buss only 144GB/sec compared to the PS4 @ 176GB/sec using a 256 bit buss, the PS4 GDDR5 is much faster memory.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BioSehnsucht View Post
    If they're benching slower, then they're doing something wrong. Context switching takes longer due to more registers, but on the other hand... MORE REGISTERS SHOULD BE FASTER. It sounds like the compilers they're using can't effectively make user of extra registers, which is pretty pathetic because large register counts are the norm in most other architectures.
    Your pointers now are 64-bit which will put more pressure on data cache, and instruction density is slightly worse which will impact instruction cache. So it's not obvious how 64-bit performs in the end. But I agree that over a set of benchmarks, it should be slightly faster.
    Speaking for myself.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by testbug00 View Post
    Microsoft was using, and planning, on shipping, with 4GB of RAM until Sony's announcement. this is factual.
    That's odd since people were saying middle of last year that MS was using 8GB... maybe your thinking about how they originally planned only 4GB to be available to the Game side?

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