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Thread: The EU in distress

  1. #1841
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    Social unbalance within the UK? Yeah, for sure. People from the grim city council estates don't seem to contribute as much as the people, like myself, who grew up in small towns and occasionally overseas with loving and reasonably happy parents. In fact they are a dead loss, as any criminal lawyer will tell you. Privately, lawyers will tell you their clients come from the shallowest end of the gene-pool.

    3 generations of welfare seems to be a factor in the worst examples. I'm all for paradise on Earth, women's and gay rights. Dark skies and less pollution. Being happy. And we think we can solve this with political structures. The truth is we just don't know what will work in the long run.

    One thing that does work like a charm is education. http://roadsandkingdoms.com/. It's not just the State's responsibility to provide it. YOU must work at it yourself. YOU must spread the word.

    Phoniness abounds. The UK shot itself in the foot with the last election. A fact. Now we are weakened and divided in the whole Brexit process. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41212505.

    Tory peer Baroness Patience Wheatcroft told demonstrators that Remainers needed to keep campaigning to stay in the EU.

    She said: "We have to stop Brexit. Since we joined the EU we've had an unprecedented period of peace and prosperity. It must be right to try and maintain that.

    "It's not undemocratic to try to persuade the electorate to think again about Brexit. That's democracy at work."

    Organisers estimated there were between 10,000 and 15,000 people at the start of the march, adding that numbers rose to about 50,000 at its height as people joined along the way.

    The police did not provide any estimates and the BBC is unable to verify these figures.
    How many times do I have to listen to this peace and prosperity rubbish? I see an EU in decline. We voted for Brexit. That's it. Let's get on with it.
    Best Regards from Steve in Portsmouth, UK.

  2. #1842
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    It's not undemocratic to try to persuade the electorate to think again about Brexit. That's democracy at work.
    Err, yes it is undemocratic and no, that's not democracy at work.
    Democracy is respecting the outcome of the vote, not forcing the electorate to keep voting again and again until they vote the way you want. The voters are not your rubberstamp commie "legislature" that has to approve whatever your party nomenclature comes up with after an all-night session of egotripping megalomania.
    Ceterum censeo the Labour Party ought to be outlawed.

  3. #1843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahenobarbus View Post
    Err, yes it is undemocratic and no, that's not democracy at work.
    Democracy is respecting the outcome of the vote, not forcing the electorate to keep voting again and again until they vote the way you want.
    You have to understand that it is democracy, specifically EU-democracy, shortened Eurocracy. Some states prefer "social democracy", other "peoples democracy", we have that sort of democracy. In Berlin are invented some crazy idea - think Lisbon Treaty, Euro 6 ("clean diesel"), abandoning written treaties and other have to follow. Why? Because it's democracy. No checks and balances, no brakes, just on full steam to brave new world.

  4. #1844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahenobarbus View Post
    Err, yes it is undemocratic and no, that's not democracy at work.
    Democracy is respecting the outcome of the vote, not forcing the electorate to keep voting again and again until they vote the way you want. The voters are not your rubberstamp commie "legislature" that has to approve whatever your party nomenclature comes up with after an all-night session of egotripping megalomania.
    Ceterum censeo the Labour Party ought to be outlawed.
    Sure, defend democracy while outlawing the second largest party because it's not aligned with your PoV.

    If you accept referenda as legitimate expression of the peoples will, then why not let the people pass judgement on the deal the Gov't has reached? It is a legitimate question within a democracy.

    The EU parliament has the right to vote on the deal, just as the 27 EU memberstates. It kinda seems fair to give the British electorate the same right. How is it undemocratic to let the British have their say in one of the most important decision they probably face for the next few decades?

    Taking a look back at the 2016 campaign, none of the issues slowly but surely coming up during the current negotiations have had even remotely sufficient public exposure to make a reasonable judgement. Actually it was the explicit intent to keep both the (British) public and the EU in the dark about the specific positions of the Gov't. That alone made the 2017 General Election more or less useless as a vote on Brexit. If you don't know the Gov'ts position of the various issues, how can you judge it accordingly.

    The fact that the Tories lost their majority, even though they campaigned on a strong and stable leadership (or so) because only they could secure a good deal shows a loss of trust.

    If all is fine and dandy and the majority wants the Brexit deal the Gov't has negotiated, then the referendum is the keystone and off you go.

  5. #1845
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmoses View Post
    You have to understand that it is democracy, specifically EU-democracy, shortened Eurocracy. Some states prefer "social democracy", other "peoples democracy", we have that sort of democracy. In Berlin are invented some crazy idea - think Lisbon Treaty, Euro 6 ("clean diesel"), abandoning written treaties and other have to follow. Why? Because it's democracy. No checks and balances, no brakes, just on full steam to brave new world.
    How true, evil Germans! Ruling like Putin over those saintly European Countries, enslaving them and torturing them with the brutal teutonic fist - oh wait, that's unfair to Putin, he at least invades in the open. /sarcasm

    Gee... like the French, Dutch or British never pushed through rules that were - well, questionable. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone ... ... and suddenly a great silence befell the European continent (including all islands)

  6. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by system7 View Post
    I am fast losing interest in the whole Brexit process. AFAIK, the EU is determined to make an example of the UK as what happens to dissenters.
    Your PoV is very much that of a perceived victimhood. Why not see the negotiation as the simple reaction to an action. The British are leaving. Fine. But don't expect the same advantages. Why is that so difficult? I'm not even talking about the 'divorce bill'. It's like you don't grant the EU the same kind of natural instinct of self preservation, while invoking it to the fullest for yourself. The EU didn't want you to leave, so why should it go beyond what is required. You cast the die, now live with the consequences.
    All this whining about the EU making an example ... gee, grow a pair. Life is more complicated than you make it seem. There are a lot of shades of grey, on both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by system7 View Post
    The only reason we Europeans aren't fighting each other any more is we are sick and exhausted from the last efforts in WW2. It was no fun whatsoever.
    Btw. i agree with both WWs being no fun at all! But i do think travelling through Europe without needing a Passport, without borders basically helped bringing us closer together. It seem's to get lost because we so get used to it. But it is by far not normal. No other place on Earth is this free to roam and travel and meet other people. That's quite an achievement. And it sure as hell didn't hinder trade within the EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by system7 View Post
    Mostly we grow our own vegetables and livestock to feed ourselves.
    One minor point: Self-sufficiency in food in the UK has been eroded since the 1980s: about 60% of food currently consumed there is grown in the UK, down from nearly 80% in the mid 1980s.

  7. #1847
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    The fact is that most people don't travel at all. Huge numbers don't even have a passport and have never been abroad. My old buddy Freddie, who was mayor of St. Thibery in the Languedoc had never been further than 20 miles from his melon and peach farm. He liked where he was.

    Now, me, I love travelling. Even attempt the local language out of courtesy. Paris in the spring is a nice place. The impressionist Art galleries, for one thing. The cafes. Though I'm told it has gone downhill in recent years. And, of course, Europeans are very nice people in general.

    But there is always this terrible battle between ideoligies in politics. Actually there is hardly a hair's breadth between most of us. We all want good schools, hospitals and a clean environment. Good food and cheap power and transport.

    I was aware that the UK imports a huge amount (40%) of food these days. It's madness really. You hardly see a apple tree or cow in Britain these days. Not economic, you see, like the Greeks with their Olives. But we seem to throw away about 20% of food. We also eat about 20% too much. So not a problem, IMO. "Dig for Victory!".

    I am often ironic in talking about those bureaucrats in Brussels. In reality they have nothing to negotiate with. The EU is a dead loss to Britain. And it's a very small part of the World these days. What? 10% in population?
    Best Regards from Steve in Portsmouth, UK.

  8. #1848
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    Food: if don't prepare war, it would be silly to force plant orange trees, olives in Yorkshire.
    @Hive: You wrote about Putin. Why no German politician does nothing which could hurt KGB?
    Referendum: Britain at least allowed their citizens to vote. Such luck wasn't allowed to French or Dutch people while EU constitution (Lisbon treaty) was ratified.
    Pax Germanica: yes, when a lot of power is collected in hands of few chosen, then those few will make mistakes no matter which nationality it has. And because they are not influenced by citizens of other countries, they will what they, their corporations, their voters want. You probably heard about "clean diesel strategy" which forced people to buy new, more polluting cars. Dutch and Phillips invented RoHS, banned harmless lights and forced people to buy lights with mercury.
    Power corrupts. Because of that I prefer less power to "few chosen".

    Interesting article:
    The AfD is the new CDU

  9. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmoses View Post
    Food: if don't prepare war, it would be silly to force plant orange trees, olives in Yorkshire.
    @Hive: You wrote about Putin. Why no German politician does nothing which could hurt KGB?
    Referendum: Britain at least allowed their citizens to vote. Such luck wasn't allowed to French or Dutch people while EU constitution (Lisbon treaty) was ratified.
    Pax Germanica: yes, when a lot of power is collected in hands of few chosen, then those few will make mistakes no matter which nationality it has. And because they are not influenced by citizens of other countries, they will what they, their corporations, their voters want. You probably heard about "clean diesel strategy" which forced people to buy new, more polluting cars. Dutch and Phillips invented RoHS, banned harmless lights and forced people to buy lights with mercury.
    Power corrupts. Because of that I prefer less power to "few chosen".

    Interesting article:
    The AfD is the new CDU
    Again please note the bold /sarcasm behind the comment about Putin. Because there is hardly anything German politicians can do, without risking a major international incident. And you of all should be glad about that. There a nice word: Realpolitik. You do what's possible. Trump is currently learning the concept with regards to North Korea.

    Wouldn't it be the FSB by now?

    That opinion appears to be behind a paywall.
    And no, the AfD is not the new CDU. If anything they are between CSU and NPD. And after the last split (when they kicked out the economically oriented founder) there's been a significant lean to the NPD side. They still haven't found another serious topic outside xenophobia (nicely dressed up, but nevertheless, xenophobia).
    There is an interesting confluence of AfD and Russian-German immigrants. We will see.
    Last edited by Hive; 12th September 2017 at 05:09 AM.

  10. #1850
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    Quote Originally Posted by system7 View Post
    The fact is that most people don't travel at all. Huge numbers don't even have a passport and have never been abroad. My old buddy Freddie, who was mayor of St. Thibery in the Languedoc had never been further than 20 miles from his melon and peach farm. He liked where he was.

    Now, me, I love travelling. Even attempt the local language out of courtesy. Paris in the spring is a nice place. The impressionist Art galleries, for one thing. The cafes. Though I'm told it has gone downhill in recent years. And, of course, Europeans are very nice people in general.

    But there is always this terrible battle between ideoligies in politics. Actually there is hardly a hair's breadth between most of us. We all want good schools, hospitals and a clean environment. Good food and cheap power and transport.

    I was aware that the UK imports a huge amount (40%) of food these days. It's madness really. You hardly see a apple tree or cow in Britain these days. Not economic, you see, like the Greeks with their Olives. But we seem to throw away about 20% of food. We also eat about 20% too much. So not a problem, IMO. "Dig for Victory!".

    I am often ironic in talking about those bureaucrats in Brussels. In reality they have nothing to negotiate with. The EU is a dead loss to Britain. And it's a very small part of the World these days. What? 10% in population?
    Most? Britain welcomed 17+ million tourists alone from Europe last year. Outbound there were some 30 million tourist visits to Europe alone... and that's just the UK. And fun fact: you don't need a passport for Europe. Well, that factoid will probably change.

    Even less, we are only 7% of the total population on Earth. But somewhat richer than probably 50-80% of them? But what's money and trade to a mercantile nation

    Nothing to negotiate? Then why isn't PM May just exercising a hard Brexit? Cut all ties and be done with it. It wouldn't even take two years. If your logic is unassailable, all it takes is a short Bill, the Right-we're-off-Act and that's it. Especially if she is infallible, as you have professed Now, what in G*d's name would make her want to negotiate. Her options are quite clear.

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